A Brutally Honest Review of The Knees Over Toes Guy 2022

September 3, 2022



I Spent 12 hours, over 5 days, watching every single video from the Knees Over Toes Guy. His fans say he’s cured them of chronic knee pain, his haters say he’s peddling dangerous pseudoscience.

What do I think?

This is my brutally honest review. While other reviews and reaction videos have been overwhelmingly positive and shallow, I put Ben Patrick through the kind of critique that would absolutely shred most coaches in the fitness world- fact checking him on the science he referenced, and hunting down the articles when he (more often than not) didn’t cite his sources- for every single second of every video available on his YouTube channel as of January first of this year.

Hope you guys enjoy the video- it ended up taking me 5 days to film, but almost 9 months to get the video out XD.

Let me know your thoughts below. Was I too harsh? Is Knees over toes guy the last hope for science in the popular fitness world? Did I mention pain science often enough? Do you think Ben Patrick can make it physically impossible for you to get injured playing basketball? What do you want to see next?

Check out more from Ben on his channel here https://www.youtube.com/c/TheKneesovertoesguy . To Ben: Thanks for the work you do, and the passion you bring to the space. I hope to soon see you integrate pain science into your work, and cite your references ;). Also, if your really believe in your protocols, consider working with some researchers to run studies on your injury prevention programs. If you can really make it physically impossible to get injured playing basketball, you’re going to have to prove it.

If you’re interested in learning from me, I’m recently reopened spots for online coaching, and still have a few spaces available! Send us a message at our website (www.themovementcult.com) or sign up directly through the channel memberships below! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVNYwsrLNUjFUzcDarDdYWw/join

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47 Comments
  1. Could you explain further what you mean at the one hour and one minute mark? About how just training the physical attributes is myopic. I don’t fully understand what you mean by this. Are you refering to within the s and c realm there can be more done or are you saying athletes should be more focused on skill of their sport? Love the video!

  2. We (ie people in general) love a good “counter intuitive” marketing pitch. Just look at all the hype around CrossFit a few years back which was pitched as a counter to “gym bro” culture.

    Now we have “Knees Over Toes Guy” saying it’s ok to do something that is generally advised against for knee pain/health.

    In both cases, there are valid points being made (ie training in “unconventional” ways may offer some benefits) but in both cases the hype is just that, hype.

    Prepare to see “the next big thing” and then another “next big thing” that purportedly upends conventional wisdom in the years to come.

    Note: I studied exercise science in college, hold multiple certifications (including CrossFit), and was a trainer/coach for over a decade so with thousands of clients and many more thousands of training hours under my belt I have a bit of perspective on this subject 😉

  3. I tried a few of his applications for an experiment. I have had knee issues ever since and have never had them before in 42 years.

  4. Can you do a similar video on the Goata movement?

  5. I had to turn up my volume so high to hear this but the content was great. I really like Ben's stuff, for the record.

  6. Eccentric training has been known in sports training so I dont really get why he is all in the hype.
    Eccentric training has the purpose to strengthen joints and muscles around the skeleton to lift heavier or absorb force.
    He is all marketing in my opinion.

  7. Hi Bren, at around 40 min you mention the number of minutes required to change the architecture of muscle tissue through static streatching but you say 20 min per week at the beginning and then per day, which one is it? Olso I would appriciate to hear your thoughs on the work of andreo spina whom I'm sure you've heard of. Thanks again, great quality content

  8. I think what Ben is really great at is communicating his ideas simply and effectively.

    Sure, sometimes the nuances may be lost and claims may be on the bold side, but I think that is 100% worth it given that he has reached easily tens if not hundreds of millions of people by now. And at the end of the day, his programs are clearly effective for most people.

    The point about him not going beyond physical attributes really feels like nit-picking. I'd assume that Ben – and anyone really – would rather leave the skill acquisition side to the experts in their respective fields. His area is mobility and joint health, and as far as I can tell he is helping more people in those areas than anyone else in the world by quite a wide margin.

    Has he done and said everything perfectly? Certainly not. But he has presented his ideas and packaged them in such a way that they have helped millions of people improve their lives and he puts all of his content out there for free (so the framing as some of his content being "marketing speak" seems a bit disingenuous, especially given you have some of your content behind a paywall). That fact, to me, easily outweighs any occasions where he uses hyperbole or doesn't cite statistics with 100% accuracy.

    EDIT: I would like to add (as I pointed out in another comment – sorry for flooding you with comments by the way) that I think the 3.5 stars is unfair and borderline irresponsible. When I say irresponsible, I mean that you could easily dissuade people from giving his programs a try (because who in their right mind would dedicate several months to a program with a rating of 3.5 stars?). So your video could lead to preventing people from regaining mobility and joint health by not trying a program that (let's be honest) has proven its effectiveness more than any single study could have.

    I'm not sure if there's some level of envy involved or you're simply trying to balance out the overly gushing positive reviews by swinging the pendulum in the other direction. But it does not seem to be coming from the same place as Ben, which is to help as many people as possible improve their mobility.

  9. Wow, really appreciate the work and thought that went into this review. Very well done

  10. Very well done and fair review.

  11. I like this format. Extremely high quality educational content from our friendly neighborhood PainScienceAndOptimalTheoryGuy

  12. No matter what you’re saying , he’s helping a billion times more people than you

  13. This hurt my head. He talks about regressing movements to avoid pain all the time. Can you name this channel the straw man channel?

  14. Developed gluteal tendinopathy after doing his 'monkey feet' weighted leg raise exercise, 7 months ago. Somewhat close to having it rehabbed, but I regret ever coming across the guy's stuff. Haven't hit a leg day since February, my legs have atrophied to sticks. Long time (10 years) distance runner, haven't laced up a pair of running shoes since then either. Won't even bother getting into the mental toll this injury has taken on me.

  15. I'd be interested in seeing a video, by you, which reviews the most common BJJ warm-up exercises and their effectiveness/practicality for improving ability to assume the positions, and make the motions needed for Jiu Jitsu/grappling, vs. a possible alternative group of warm ups that you think might or should be done to help teach BJJ.

  16. Do you believe that muscles can actually get longer? I've read some stuff about longitudinal hypertrophy through full range of motion strength training, and I'm not sure if that's technically lengthening muscle by adding satellite cells to the end or not.

  17. About the RICE method, ice is good for pain true, but doesn't it slow down the healing process, since it lessens inflammation, and inflammation is crucial for the healing process?

  18. I would love to see a zoom/facetime or in person of you talking back and forth with Ben, asking him questions and seeing his responses, almost a podcast style 🙂

  19. Do the WESTSIDE barbell guys

  20. Bren: "Rubbing and grinding together – that's not a good thing" – depends on the context

  21. Excited to watch this fully. Kudos for such an in depth piece.

  22. Reply
    Odysseas Kolovisteas September 3, 2022 at 9:50 am

    Hey Bren, as per usual phenomenal content man as an aspiring athlete I love seeing people who are so knowledgeable, passionate and enthusiastic but at the same time lead from the front and are open minded. Especially the philosophy of having balance and combining every type of movement, so that we don't become specialists(I also follow Ido, but being 15 and broke doesn't allow me to study under him🤣) I just wanted to say that you are an inspiration.

  23. I want to know was it just me that got the impression he was selling two things:

    1. fixing your knees and keeping them fixed.

    2. A blueprint for having elite athletic ability.

    I had no knee pain prior and I was sold on this program on the basis that he had found a way to reverse engineer strength in a way that would get me to peak physical performance. Hitting all the right numbers body weight split squat, fancy Nordic etc..but something about his obsession with quads seems to be pissing off my knees.

  24. I respect your opinions about the major influencers in the movement and fitness space. Way to put yourself out there.

  25. I had to come back a few times to this marathon video to be able to digest what you are saying. Where I come from at the worn out joints age of 80 my perception is that the science is ever evolving & at the mercy of the "evolvers". Both Bren & Ben have taught me stuff, not the least lesson is that my abilities are not as good as they once were. When I see you guys performing movement I am very aware of making some allowance for my own wear & tear whilst working towards improvement. I have seriously trained in Ben's methods & have to say I have greatly benefited. This leads me to allowing myself to attempt some of the moves from Bren & wondering if I can maintain some of the range of motion that is now my main concern. My channel on YouTube is an attempt to explain how to "hang in there" when the forces of nature try to take their toll.

  26. Ben method is a great way to start the journey. It's simple seem logical and got me out of a jamb. Now that I have progressed and started to learn more I still appreciate his techniques and use a lot of them but from my new perspective. It worked well for me.

  27. Reply
    More Dates More Fiber September 3, 2022 at 9:50 am

    48:43 "Coach of this level" ? He's just some guy that studied under Charles. If anything, he's turning into a mild guru for the knees

  28. Reply
    More Dates More Fiber September 3, 2022 at 9:50 am

    37:37 I thought the same thing.

  29. I've discovered a new herb in the forest of New Hampshire, which when used makes it physically impossible for the user to get injured playing basketball.

  30. As someone who has done 1x bodyweight in a Jefferson curl, and also as someone who ends up with some bend in the deadlift when I get close to 2x+, I don’t really see the problem with losing the straight back in these positions, as I kind of just assumed it was a bit of loss of perfect form from the heavier weights and not really problematic in any way. Similar to losing some in anything as you get super stressed / tired out by the movement.

  31. Thanks for the review Bren I really appreciate your effort!
    44:58 that sounds very interesting, could you do a video on it? Or maybe on different breathing techniques/habits in general ?

  32. Hey Bren, good review, although I feel like a lot of the negative stuff you mention about him is just random marketing stuff he spoke about (like him saying he could make it impossible to get injuries in bball) or how some of his stuff isn't backed by science. But his actual workouts work and science can't keep up with everything. So, a 3.5 is kind of low. Especially considering how many people copy him.

  33. Your ad says your online coaching is now open. I’m so excited… I paused the video to sign up, but your website still shows online coaching is closed. 😞

  34. Interesting critique, thanks for that

  35. Reply
    Golden Warrior - the art of longevity September 3, 2022 at 9:50 am

    Yoga will rejuvenate the body in more ways than Ben’s solutions offer. Full range of motion and dedication to yoga practice is key to stimulate regeneration of any and all body parts that aren’t 100%.

  36. wow i didnt expected a 3,5/5 stars i thought u will giv him 4 or maybe even 4,5 stars but i can understand ur explenation about the pain part from KOT cause there was almost none and the same goes for the skill component andd thank u for that video bro, u gave some different perspective about ben. Thank u for ur effort
    🙏

  37. absolute quality bro 🙏

  38. This will be interesting, as I do supplement KoT

  39. Watch the GOATA guys and tell us what you think!

  40. Hey Bren, I appreciate what you’ve provided here. After suffering a painful left knee injury last December, I came across Ben’s videos while looking for various therapy methods for rehabilitation. I had a therapist who put me on the road to recovery, but I felt there’s no such thing as TMI. There was NO WAY I was going to be able to execute some of his exercises.. 1) I needed to get somewhat back to “normal”, first.. and 2), I’m 68 years old. However, what he did provide was incredible inspiration, and encouragement, and I still watch his videos. I’m glad you provided this critique because, as I said, there’s no such thing as TMI. Back in my more frequent gym workout days, I MADE Butt-to-the-floor squats my favorite exercise (I hated squats for the longest time), and right now I’m working on getting back to that because I feel that having stronger quads will help protect my knees. I have also started regular bicycle rides to strengthen my legs. If anyone is suffering from knee injury I must say, if you can exercise through mild pain/discomfort, keep at it, you’ll find everyday it becomes easier and easier. Once again – THANKS – for providing this content. To Strength!

  41. Alight guys. thoughts? Plan is to do the volume, then programming for movers videos next. Probably separately, but maybe together- what do you guys want to see in those, or any other videos you'd like to see?

  42. What would be the benefit of performing Nordic curls if the hamstrings are already strong from squats and deadlifts? Do both functions of a muscle have to be trained for optimal development?

  43. Thank you Bren, your view is always valuable. In regards with Ben's lack of references, he doesn't need any. He uses logic which is above any scientific research. An imbalance or weakness will eventually cause injury. When you strike, jump, run etc a very high percentage of the force you apply will return to your body. Your muscles and tendons as a unit will absorb the forces and will protect your joints. If a muscle is not doing it's job a percentage of this energy will either leak into the joints or another muscle will have to take the burden to compensate.(for years after 10 minutes of running I had a pain in the outer side of my left ankle. after training tibialis, running barefoot and working on my hip stability it completely disappeared within 2 months. I had sprained this ankle several times in the past) The problem with waiting a study in order to accept something as a truth is that we are missing out valuable knowledge that can make us happy, be it a movement advise or plant medicines. Also it has created a society where people always look externally when they need knowledge instead of looking into the source, which is their own experience of body and mind.(I don't believe you are one of those people though at all). It's painful because people disregard any information without studies and ironically this may be the solution to their problems.

  44. Check out goata my friend I think you'll be interested.

  45. I'd like a link to the review you mentioned in regards to pain management strategies (i.e. icing, compression, elevation)

  46. Reply
    More Dates More Fiber September 3, 2022 at 9:50 am

    Hope you used my channel for a resource! Lol

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